Moutarro

Moutarro

Oral history from Senegal to Portland, Oregon

Moutarro is from Senegal but his parents were from Guinea. When he was younger, his dream was to eventually go to France, like several other African students in Francophone countries After his short stint at the French university, he used his English skills to work with an American NGO. Finally, after working for an international student exchange program for 7 years, Moutarou studied at a university and then went back to Senegal to work for a different company. He speaks about the importance of his faith and how it keeps him rooted and his brief experience at Amazon where he encountered racism on a daily basis. Towards the end of the interview, Moutarro discusses the impacts of colonialism’s modern day consequences.

2000s

Portland, Oregon

Moutarro (M)
Radhia (R)

M: Yeah, I can start from the beginning of everything, beginning of my journey. Maybe that might give you a picture of how I came here or why I came here.

R: Mhmmmm.

M: I was born. My–my parents are from Guinea. So my dad came from Guinea. So I would say immigrant to somebody else. And but my mom was also originally from Guinea but was born and raised in Senegal.

M: My dad came to Senegal to find work to help to support himself and with my mom. And then I was born and raised in Senegal.

M: And when I was going to school, I was in–I was in a classroom– Senegal is a very interesting country where people can come from all over West Africa. So that's the, that's this, the unique thing about Senegal–the Ivory Coast can also be like Senegal.

M: But in my class, we used to say like who, who is a “real” Senegalese based on the last names, you know, I'm saying? So that was something that we used to play around with, joke around. And we would find that half of the class, actually, they're not from Senegal. So they are from Guinea, Mauritania, Mali, Gambia, Burkina Faso. Is some people from Niger or maybe Benin–

R: Yeah

M: But, you know, like we used to dream of like like, you know, after our school, after our schooling in Senegal, we used to dream to go to France.

M: Any–any African who is from a Francophone country, it would mean the same thing, like you finished your high school [then] you want to go to France to do university there.

M: That was our dream. That was my dream and [was the dream for] many of my peers.

M: I was very fortunate to be able to have an English teacher who studied in England, but came back to Senegal and became an English teacher. So from all the whole, the whole middle school he was my teacher.

M: And then he was not only just a teacher but a friend of us because he would invite us into his house. And once we go to his house, there's no more Wolof–Wolof is a local language–or no more, no more French, no more any other language but English.

M: But that's when we got the love of English.

M: That's how I get the love of speaking English and like trying to understand the language. And of course, the United States.

M: I've never thought about England because even though he went to England, but my, my brain never felt like I was supposed to go to England or I want to go to England for me, it was the US.

M: But first of all, it was France. France was the easiest way because we didn't pay [for] school. System is like a public university and then you can get a scholarship to go to France. But that was our dream.

M: So when we have our baccalaureate, which is like finished high school and stuff, I didn't get a chance to go to France.

M: But some of my friends, when they got the scholarship, they went, some of them paid for their own. They go and I was like [unknown]...you know, I gotta do it. That's fine. That's not the end of the world.

M: So I'm Muslim. So also, being a Muslim is very important because for me, it helps me with believing in if this thing doesn't happen, it means that God didn't allow it.

R: Yeah.

M: You know, that's that's–I'm guessing you [Radhia, the interviewer] are a Muslim.

R: Yeah, I understand you're saying–

M: You understand what I mean.

M: So that's helpful for me in terms of my well-being in my future with everything. And that's kept me from exploding or not thinking about something else is possible.

M: So I went to the university. I wanted to do English after car[?]I want you to do..

M: I wanted to go to the History Department to learn history and stuff because I'm very I love history. In our system, French system is not the best one, so I hate it, but that's the way it is. The French system where you, you don't get to choose what you want to do in you're in, when you go to university, they choose for you.

R: Okay [in agreement].

M: You got to have the choice to have three options when you are in high school. And that's it. And then they choose, you're going to go here because based on your grades, this is why you should go. And I–

R: Really interesting…

M: It is–It's this. I just can't accept that. It's just for me, it's just terrible. You don't get to choose where you wanna go. So they they they because my grades in English was way higher than everything else. So they sent me to the English Department–

R: Mhmmm

M: Fine, you know. But I didn't I wasn't happy when I accepted it because there is no choice for me. So I was learning I was doing English, but didn't succeed, didn't finish the two-year because I did two years. Strikes and a lots of craziness.

M: So I stopped.

M: I just spent two years and I stopped.

M: So I went back to my hometown and then started looking for a job since I could speak a little English. I said “Oh, why not American NGOs?”

M: So I found a job working, teaching human rights with an amazing American. Endure.

M: And that's where these American spirit started to build up in my head. And then my family was also host family for Peace Corps volunteers. That's another aspect of my life that changed everything. I wanted it to Mike to come to the US.

M: I started to send applications to apply for college in the US. So some accepted me, but I didn't understand really how it works. I just applied and apply. They accepted me but I didn't know what to do.

M: That time there was no internet, so yeah. I didn't know what to do seriously, so I didn't fill up, you know.

M: But I just wanted to come here to study.

M: And finally I got another job with Peace Corps and then another job with another study abroad program. That's when I have to have American students coming from all over the university–American universities studying abroad in Senegal: SIT School for International Training that is based in Vermont. That's how I started working with Americans. And for many years, that's what I was doing.

M: And then I would just like, okay, now I am in it. I was still interested in coming here to study. So that's how I try to apply for many in many schools. But SIT also has a grad school. So and then they told me If you spend seven years with SIT working with the World Learning Program you are eligible to have a scholarship to come to the US.

M: That's when I'm like, Yes, my time is coming [laughs].

R: [laughs]

M:-- Like yeah, So I went I went started I started paying for a private school, like night night school, like a late night school to do finish my bachelors degree, so I did it. And then after seven years, I applied to come to the US. And that's how I–I ended up getting a scholarship to come here.

M: But it was not full scholarship, it was half of the money. So someone who doesn't really understand the system here. So I came here but didn't really understand what I'm doing. So I had even though I had an advisor, everything that was helping me.

M: I was here in Vermont. I got–I was an RA helping people, but still there was something missing that I didn't understand in terms of how to pay the rest of the money [tuition]. So I ended up getting a private loan. But to be able to get a private loan, I needed a cosigner.

M: One thing I didn't know, you know, but I was looking for someone to help me…

M: Like in Africa when I need a cosigner is pretty easy. You know, that's one thing that in Africa we help one another, no problem.

M: But here it's different. Because if you co-sign someone, it means you have to be responsible of everything. If the person doesn't pay, you going to pay.

M: So I didn't understand how heavy that was. You know, every time I ask someone, they said “No, I can do it. I cannot do it.” So I didn't understand why people couldn't help another person.

M: You know what? It was very, very complicated until someone I worked with bringing students to Senegal who got just understand this African spirit helped me really like cosign me. Even though she accepted to cosign me. She had the flew from–fly from Seattle to New York to meet me, just talk to me about cosign. So complicated. So but I was happy that I could find someone. And until today I'm paying.

M: So after my, my two years and half in the US studying, I went back home because before I left, I got a job with another study abroad programs, CIEE. I don't know if you're familiar with CIEE, Council on International Education Exchange. They are based in Portland, Maine.

M: So I got a job offer, so I went back home. I started working as a program assistant in and teaching also French and Wolof and other stuff. Um, until then. But I was married before with an American–a half Senegalese half American woman.

M: But I didn't use that to come. I use the I came to study, but after that I have to leave. I left but she was supposed to come with me, but she didn't come in and blah, blah, blah and and divorce blah, blah.

M: So then I was in Senegal working, but it was hard for me to go back. And then have same because I wasn't working with Senegalese people. Even though I was in an American program, but it was hard for me to–

M: One thing in Africa it is like…Here. It's just like go, go, go, go like, you know, you do. But there is just like people take the time. Yeah. You know, like they laid back. They don't go like if you'd give them an appointment at one they come one, whatever or sometimes–

R: In African time…

M: Yeah. It was very hard for me to dislike. And I have a friend that we were in middle school together, we're dreaming together. He's in, he's a teacher at Pomona College in California. So he was like asking me every now and then how I was doing and like, I'm trying to just get back home, but it's not easy to be back because people don't really want to do things and I just wanted to go, but it's not easy. He's like, Oh, you should come back. I'm like, No, I'm not, I'm done. I don't want to have any American woman anymore. Like I'm like, He's like No, no, no, I know someone, blah, blah.

M: So that's how I was hooked up with another American woman who is a psychologist. That's how I ended up coming back here to live in 2019, even though every year I was coming back here during the summer to teach French at the Concordia Language Villages in Minnesota.

M: But when I got this, the fiancee, I came here in 2019 to stay.

M: So and since then I'm here teaching French in a private school in Portland, Oregon.

M: But I'm about to move to Baltimore because I got another another job there, a full-time job in another private school teaching French.

M: So this, this, this is my story, kind of, of how I ended up coming here.

M: It was kinda, you know, very complicated, but that was one dream. For me, it was come and study. It didn't happen the way I wanted it. But it happened anyway. So I'm happy about that. But that's life. That's me.

M: Yeah. If you have any other questions, anything like me to clarify anything else, I'm very open to answer any–

R: I mean, I guess like because you do a lot of moving around. How do you feel about the community that you have in the United States compared to the community that you have back home? Like what are some key differences? I guess?

M: You know, like it's over the time, working with Peace Corps, working with SIT study abroad, working with CIEE study abroad, working with Lakeside School in Seattle, bringing students to Senegal, working with the Concordia Language Villages, working and then the studying in Vermont. Also teaching online language like wall of French and polar, and also helping some time doing some work, cultural stuff. It helped me create my own community.

M: So I am so I'm very fortunate to be able to know in each state you name. I am. I know someone or I have a friend there.

M: So when I was coming to I came I came to accurately I came to Portland in 2017 to visit. So and my my wife now, the fiancee at that time was like, “Wow, you know, a lot of people in Portland.” So I had a community already important that I, that I had, you know, those who spent time in Senegal, those who understand me.

M: So when I came here was easy because those people are inviting me to show me around, to show me the city of Portland, to just welcome me. Which is very important because Portland is a very white state and it's a very liberal state, but also very like you can meet all crazy places people, and it happens every now and then.

M: But I was so lucky to have people that can welcome me, sometimes invite me to their homes. I have someone that I know from the Peace Corps group. His wife is Senegalese. They live in Portland. And before I arrived, I was communicating with him like I'm coming. And then when I arrived, he invited me at home, they cook Senegalese meal. And it was nice to have that. For me, it was very helpful to have that to create my own comfort to avoid being being–how do you say the word English being the word?

M: Being–When you miss your house, when you miss your home…?

R: Like homesick.

M: Homesick. Thank you for that–being homesick and stuff. But also there is a Senegalese community here. And there is also a mosque here. So it's like a walking distance from me. And it was very important to have a mask around. So every Friday before the Covid I was going there.

M: There's one Senegalese man who is part of the community, so he's an iman. And that was very important for me because I would go and see Muslims that are like me. So we can understand, we can speak the same language.


M: Also having a Senegalese community where I can go to and then spend time. But it's very difficult because here everybody has something to do. Here, everybody works…or everybody.

M: You know, it's not easy to just extend a girl. I would go I need to stay home. I was living in the car where I was by myself. But if I needed to see someone or spend time with people, I guess go out somewhere with the, the, the coffee seller from Guinea or from another city. You go then sit there discussing, chat and he can spend the whole time making tea, chatting, you know. But here you can have that.

M: Or you can just like even my neighbors, I can't go to my neighbor like” Hello, can I come from tea? You know, it's not possible. So even though there's a, there's a guy here at Mexican guy is very nice. You know, every time I go out I see him like, yeah, yeah. You brother and blah, blah. But you can just go to his house.

R: Yeah.

M: In Senegal. You can do that. You can go. You don't have to call you, just go. And then they welcome you.

M: You know, like it's impossible to do that here. Like yesterday. On Tuesday, I had a plumber who came here to repair the leaking thing and then it was about time to eat for me. So in my culture was like in my culture, you cannot eat when someone is in your house without you inviting the person. You got to invite the person. That's how we do.

M: But I had to retract and it's like, Okay, it should I invite him? I think India is you don't do that. So sometimes I just can't do it because I'm like, okay, it can be offensive for some people. So I didn't do it.

M: I had to go and hide even though he doesn't care: he’s American. But for me, my culture, it was hard to not invite him but also eat next to him while he's working. So that's something that I couldn't do. So I have to go. And in the other room, is it there? So that's one thing that is different from my hometown, my home country, which is very complicated here.

M: Sometimes I can feel alone when my wife is at home–at work and I'm here by myself, you know, there's nothing to do. The only thing you can do is walk outside. Which is very difficult because the Senegalese people I know here or Africans are like far away from here. So they're in-office Portland, which is like 25-minute drive, something like that. So it’s– it's difficult. And sometimes when I want to go out and just spend time outside. I go and I take the bus because I don't have a car, so I go ahead and take the bus.

M: But in Senegal, I, when I go and take the bus, I chat with people. But here you can, there are people who like…

M: I remember in New York when I was in New York Greenlight internship, I was on the train and then it is like this big dude came for me. It was like, wow, these guys, you know, I'm saying like it's a black man like huge, tattoos everywhere. So I was impressed with these tattoos because I don't really, we don't really see tattoos in Senegal. For me, it was really like a man with tattoos.

M: So I was looking at him, the tattoos and try to see what it means. And he sensed that I was looking at him. And he said “What the hell you looking at?” And then I was like ooooh I am in trouble [laughs].

R: [laughs]

M: But that's how it is here. You don't just stare at people, you know, even though I was just trying to understand like the tattoos, like why he's doing this. What is what. But for him was like No, you don't stare at people like that. So it was hard but that's how it is. Here.

M: I'm trying to do my best to stay, you know, focused and do a lot of research in by my own and tried to create curriculum when I don't have class, or tried to read something, or watch comedies, or try to chat with people from the country from Senegal, even though the time different is be seven-hour different. It's not easy.

M: So but I gotta do something like that. I entertain myself, not just be by myself all the time. Yeah, So that's how I do that. So what I do and how I create my own community. But That's a different style guide here, but that's the way it is here.

R: I was going to say, like, that whole individualistic mindset is something that I noticed is unique to North America, America, and Canada. Because I grew up in Canada and whenever I was around other people from the diaspora, like there's a lot of Southeast Asians, a lot of Indians, like, Pakistani people who I grew up with. And like the whole concept of like inviting someone into your house. Like you sit down and you have your yeah. You know.

R: And then when I came to Kansas for school, like if I were to say with my friends and I were to start eating something, I'd offer it to them instinctively. And they'll just be like,” Oh, you don't have to do that.” And it's like, well, that's just how I was raised. Like, that's just something that's normal to me and I don’t think twice like and then if I bite into my house like I'll be sure to give them water, give them tea, give them something. They're always so shocked at how hospitable I am, but I'm like, it's not just me. Like there's so many people who moved like that's all it is.

M: Yes. Yes. Yes, no. It is true.

M: And then it's a I'm glad that your parents gave you that because I've met here lots of people from Senegal, Gambia, from other countries, but they've lost. And it's very sad, but it's the way it is, you know, and having those values, I think it's very important. It helps you stay who you are and then just like very simple in your life. And the more simple, the better, it is to move forward.

R: Yeah. I think it also has to do with like, I think how my parents raised me with like the ideals of like Islam and religion in like staying rooted in my identity and like close to that. So I kinda just take that and implement everywhere I go. Like whether it's my work-life, school life, my social life, like just those things. Or it's fundamentally who you are as a person–

M: Exactly.

R: A few weird if I had to turn that off and turn that on depending on what group of people I was in.

M: I feel you, I totally feel you. It's very important like being Muslim, I think for me, it is really, really good in my well-being. You know, if I don't have it in this very complicated, so I need to. Islam helped me stay patient, calm, thoughtful, respectful, humble. I can go on and on and all of this that, you know. So it's just great. I'm just thankful for for this religion. Yeah.

R: Yeah. It helps you stay rooted in your identity. And just like as you said before, when things get tough, like that reminder 0, like things are going to fall into place under Matthew. Yeah, just that simple. That's simple ideology will save you from so much. Yep, It's like, yeah, Like it's it's hard to get by.

M: Yeah. I know the difference with my colleagues and I can see the difference between them and I in many things the way that I, I am patients, sometimes they just look at me like, wow, like “How can you do it?” which I will talk and you do it like a little thing. They can explore.

M: For example, my students, sometimes they're very demanding, you know, American students very demanding. But the way that I do with them, I think my Islam helped me like really in terms of how I do with them and then they don't get it. They just like my colors like Oh no, I cannot stand is I can understand. I'm like, yeah. It's okay. You know, yeah.

R: Yeah. Patientce, the applications of virtue. Have you had any like negative implications of being like a practicing Muslim or like being a minority in whatever space is that you've been in?

M: I mean, in terms of Islam, no, I've never I've never encountered anything bad. Because I guess maybe because, you know, as a black person, nobody expect me to be a Muslim. So maybe it's, that's what it is.

M: When I go to the mosque here, it's mixed with people from Somalia, Eritrea, Senegal, like Pakistan, Indonesia, like many, many people from all over the wall. So it's a mix of race in whatever culture so people maybe don't see you as different or something. I think maybe that's why I've never really liked, faced any problem was as a Muslim. Because maybe like people don't see it. Maybe.

M: But my name, my name is or even my name is Arabic. But the way it is written, maybe it's, it doesn't help people see that I am Muslim, I guess…

M: But in terms of black person, yes, I I faced some crazy look everywhere…

R: Mhmmm

M: You know, Portland is terrible. You know, even though I like Portland, but sometimes I can see people the way they look at you. Then you're not welcome.

M: So I worked at Amazon When I came here when I got my work permit, I was applying for teaching job. While I was waiting. I'm like, okay, school going to start in September. So between February and September. I don't want to sit oh, I need to have something. So I applied for any kind of job. So I applied for Amazon. So it was like quick in one week, I was hired to be like us to sort the items and stuff.

M: And when I was there at the warehouse, like this is so funny. Like the white people, even sometimes the Chinese or some other people, they just see me as someone who doesn't know anything.

R: Interesting. Okay.

M: Like seriously, one day at the [conveyor] belt, I was scanning all the items to create palattes for those items going in the same place. So this woman came to me and said, this is like showing me a tape. Like let's say “This is tape.” Like Okay.

R: Oh, wow.

M: Like “Do you know tape?” I guess. I know. And she's like, Come I'll show you take instead of saying I am, I'm show you a tape or the tapes. I show you tape. I'm like, I worked with her and I said, you're not speaking proper English. You know, you know, like I studied English. I went to school and she's like You went to school, you know. So yeah, I have a master's degree, you know. I speak six languages. Do you know that? Yes. I can teach you English. I can teach you English, Spanish, French, and many others. You know what I know…

R: I know these biases…Microaggressions. Unlike the microaggressions, they yeah. They're they're lying to you.

M: Yeah, like it happened to move in Amazon. I spent almost four months in Amazon. Every day. There is someone with a dirty look or seeing me as if I don't know anything. Or even when there's a black African American, I think he knew like I was from Africa. He will dislike seeing me as like looking at me. He never say hello to me until we met in the bathroom. He had a bad experience with another woman from a Latina woman that I I also had a bad experience with that with her. And she would just he was just talking about it. I'm like, Oh, it's that lady. Like we talk so much about that. He's like “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and where are you from?” I'm like “I'm from Senegal, West Africa.” Oh wow, West Africa. Wow, I forgot Africa. Wow. It must be hard. I don't know Africa. I'm like no, it's actually better than here. You guys got money, everything, but you don't have a life there. We have a life. Like How come you speak English pretty well. I didn't know. I speak six languages. Speak English. I said I know. But that was kinda like a very odd and create crazy.

M: But I became very calming and patient and then we ended up becoming friends as I can teach you so much, you know, like I can tell you, you should go to Africa before you say anything, you should know, what is Africa before you have your, you know, there maybe you watch too much TV and stuff.

M: And I can go on and like so many…Even my own boss never talked to me, even though every day he would come and supervise me, see what I was doing. And one day I made a mistake. He was like, “No, I actually wasn't even a mistake, mistake. It was something I didn't normally, but it was not well done from the previous person. And I tried to explain to him what it is. But the way that I was analyzing it, he was just looking at me like, You know. And when I was speaking and explaining and I mistakenly say a few words in French. [my boss was] just like you speak another language, has it? No, I speak six languages. He was like you and the “You” was kinda like you. I'm like…

M: If you go to Africa, you will maybe see rarely someone who speaks only one language, one language in Africa, people speak at least, at least two. And sometimes one person can speak five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and so on.

M: And he was like, wow, and since that day, the man talks, start talking to me every morning. Say, Hey, hello. I'm like, yeah, it happens to me many times so I will just tired of Amazon, so I wanted to so I left. I left because I had had one week because I will going to start Concordia Language Villages to teach French. So I left like a week before because I was just I couldn't take it anymore.

M: No, my patience has had limits…

R: I've heard Amazon is hard, especially for people like you. It's crazy.

M: The way that they treat like they like you have to the speed they want you late. It's like inhumane. I had to say, man, I cannot do that. You know, no. I got to. I am a human being. I'll do it this way. He was like, No man, you need to do 800 item per hour. I was doing 300 and I said, No, I can't go through hundreds more.

R: Yeah. Like because when it comes to the workforce, like, they're going to replace. So it's like you have to do what's best for your own self. Exactly. In as much as you want to help the company you are an individual before employees.

M: Yeah. Yeah. It was hard but, you know, for me it was important to have to just work, you know, how the money was not good. It was like 900 [dollars] per month, but it was fine because I didn't want to stay home.

M: And then I had to online classes every day. I came back home from Amazon, but I didn't want to stay home like the whole morning doing nothing.

R: I understand. Yeah. Wow.

R: I feel like yeah, that the different intersectionality, it's like you're an African man who came here and then people are just looking at you and saying, well, he probably doesn't know how to do this. But at the end of the day, you knew more than what they did.

M: Yeah. And also I traveled a lot in many countries. I've been to Europe, I've been to many African countries. I've traveled a lot.

M: So just coming in, seeing these people looking at you, these people, many of them never left America. I'm looking at me like my another [unknown]. I'm like, you don't know what he's talking about. But for me it's fine, you know, since they don't know me, It's fine. It's okay.

M: It happened it happened a lot. And also the thing is like I'm very quiet in general. I don't really talk. If I don't have too. Here, people they think like if you don't talk that you don't know, you know, one thing I noticed like even like at work, my colleagues, I don't really talk that much if I don't have anything to say, I just keep quiet but they think it will because you don't say anything then you are limited.

R: So it's like that. I think that's another thing with the mentality out here is everything is really, everything is very personal. Like if you're not talking to you, that means like if you don't like me or you want nothing to do with me, or we’re just so different.

R: But sometimes people just have different types of personalities with all different where it's like that's not the norm. Do you know what your nor might be enough may not be my normal. Yeah. I guess..

M: Yeah, as a Fulani, you know, like if you go to Fulani people were very shy, very quiet people. So that's how it is, but it doesn't mean like we're we're not we don't we don't talk or we don't want to talk to people. It's just quiet.

R: That's why cultural competency and being aware of other people is you have to be able to deal with wide groups of people. Otherwise you're just going to always have some sort of weird perspective. what you think is right? It's not actually right. Yeah.

M: So that's why I tried to like smile that much. At least I have that smile so I can give to people. When I was doing my my interview for my job in Baltimore. The the the the athletic director when we were having the Zoom calls. So she looked at me and he's like, I have 20 min with you. Last few questions, but your smile tells me a lot. So I don't need to ask me any question now. I know I want you.

R: Oh, wow.

M: Really? Just like Yeah, I've been here for she said, I've been I've been working for 35 years. If I see someone who is good, I can tell tells me that you are a good person. You have heart, and you can do the work like okay. But I will accept the question as well [laguhs].

R: [laughs].

M: Well, yeah, we spent like 5 min talking something else and I was like, okay, that's good, you know, and I don't need anymore. Like okay.

R: Yeah. That's that's that's very interesting. So you're never heard them for you and then I was like, okay, so I'm still interested in answering your questions. Let me know if you're good, you're good. No. That's nice.

R: I'm kinda curious with like because you said you teach French. What are they like? What's the demographic of students that you're teaching French?

M: Right now I have two classes in high school. So one class is like the French 2 level, there are 14 people and one black person. I'm sorry, I'm late and it's just one black person. One black person in my two classes, only one black person. And as a two Asian American, the rest white–all white?.

M: Well, so and the other, the other group, three Asian-Americans and the rest whites there 12 people. So there's no black in my only one black in my entire two classes. That's Portland.

M: So the school is like, It's a very wealthy school. So a lot of people, because it's a private school, So it makes sense. Most of the black people who are there, they got scholarships because it's difficult for the parents. So that athlete student is American, Congolese American. The parents are from Congo. And yeah, so it's, uh, it's very, very complicated.

M: So I'm glad that our only I at least have one person who can–

R: Yeah.

M: I can relate to even though she's not she has her some mental issues sometimes, but still. It's it's still good to have at least one person. Yeah.

R: No, that's yeah, that's it's hard when the people who you're working with, people who you're with around can't relate to you.

M: Yeah.

R: Won’t identify with them.

M: Yeah. Yeah. But that's how it is. This is really, really very white. And then the many, many other black people are in the Northeast Portland. So it's acrossed unit. Go downtown after you cross the river, going into a Seattle, that's where you find them. And unfortunately like everywhere else, It's very difficult.

M: So I go there and in a lot of Africans and Portland is that yeah, we have a lot of Gambians, alot of Congolese, lot of they're–

R: Is there also Somali population?

M: Yeah, So you're not that much but somebody populations. They are mostly in other cities like acidic will Bend and Eugene, I think. Yeah, not not many, many important or I don't know them. I don't know where they are. I don't really see them that much.

M: Even though in front, like right in front of me, there's a Somali person I think married to someone from Egypt, I think. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's Portland is very unique.

R: Yeah. I went when I was younger. I was a little kid. So I remember we went to the beach. But I used to go back to Seattle quite a bit because I lived in Vancouver and Seattle was a two-hour drive. Yeah. My family up there. So yeah.

M: Yes. Seattle has a lot of things. Somebody I think I think Vancouver has also Vancouver in Washington has also a lot of smelly population. I think, I think someone told me one day because I know something greatest person who live in Vancouver to have lots of Gambians there but also Somali.

R: Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to share? Because I don't have any more questions. You've answered all of them with their stories. [laughs].

M: Yeah, That's why I like to start with my story. So when I say when I started, I think it will answer lots of questions that you might have. So because it's very, quite, an interesting story.

M: Yeah, So I, I, you know, just one thing I love about is just sharing my country, my Africa. And I'm part of many with many institutions that take people to, to Senegal, to Africa to learn about their heritage or learn about Senegal.

M: So I am going to Senegal this July taking African-American students to Senegal to learn about their heritage. It's part of the program called “My Black Birthright Bood, right? So stuff. It's taking high-school students that are African descent have something like 10% of African blood. And to take them back to Africa for them to see.

M: Because many don't really understand or don't know or think like Africa starts with African, African history starts with slavery. Which is false. But that's what those who are writing history, that's what they were portray[ing].

M: It's not true.

M: So it's important for them to know that there are, there were Africa before empires. Things happen before civilization. We are doing that and we are trying to help them see the picture.

M: So we started last year. Before Covid. We had six students, and this time we have 18 students that we are taking and then we couldn't travel for in 2020 because of Covid, but this 2020 people are traveling. So that's one thing that I wanted to share that helps understand Africa, helps see the real Africa, not just Africa that white people–

R: Narratively constructed–

M: Yes. And yeah, and I'm glad that it's working and I'm glad that we're doing something. We showing them like, you know, things that have never learned or they don't have the The opportunity to see, because in the US, Africa is not a topic. Even though it's huge topic. Yeah.

M: So when I tell them like we spent, I spent years, years studying about African history. And you're telling me like, you don't know anything about I am like “Is there's something wrong.?” We know there is no history. The history of the US started somewhere. You know, you know, there, there is the history of those who lived here before when the European kingdoms, that, that's the way America started. You know, even though there's something else before. But Africa is there's–yeah. There's..

R: It goes way, way back, way before my goodness, the Beirut way before everything else–

M: Egypt, you know, it's something we've taught. People would be trying to teach them. Digital gi like where everything started the civilization, even the architectural aspects of everything, math and everything started from there. But nobody did. They don't know. They're like, Wow. Yeah.

R: Yeah.

M: Yeah, yeah.

M: But I'm I'm I'm happy to be here even though it's hard, but I'm trying to build something. I'm trying to every time I got the chance to educate someone, explained, show that if you need to understand, you need to do some research. You cannot just sit where you're sitting in and thinking something that is not true. Have to do the research. And you got, you have to travel.

M: So I'm trying to convince people to travel, like in 2022. I will be with another presentation taking, taking 35 French teachers from the US to Senegal so they can see that there's something else. We did it last year in 2019, we took 13 students, 13 French teachers, all women from the US, mostly from–six of them are from Sacramento, to Senegal.

M: So we did like a mostly sightseeing, an inviting someone who history teacher talk about, you know, everything for them to see those things. I think it's helpful to understand and learn about Africa. And they can also spread the word.

R: Yeah, especially if they're French teachers, they can teach a different perspective of French to their students, you know?

M: Yes. So like the last semester, I, I used the European borders like the Schengen Space to teach my students about borders in the world. So I teach them, taught them about the European borders, and then try to give them a project to do to learn about African borders.

M: I was able to show them. I'm like the different conflicts in borders. In Nigeria and Cameroon. There's a conflict there. Rwanda, Burundi or Rwanda, Congo, or Gambia, Senegal, or Mali, Burkina Faso, or Somali and Ethiopia or something like that. So there's a problem. There's forums everywhere.

M: So I asked them to go to research and explain. And then I ask them to go and learn about the Berlin Conference, which is in 1884. Uh-huh. I say go there, search to Berlin Conference and tell me. So they came they never knew about that. And then they came alone so much like wow, this is happening. They shared Africa like yeah.

M: And then ask them to go study the African empires. And they were like, wow, there were [sic] something before. I'm like Yeah. And then they saw it was very well organized. Mali Empire, Ghana empire, Somali Empire, and then just to name those.

M: And then they do like they were able to link the problems of today in Africa to the Berlin Conference and to the empires and then to…

M” The borders in Africa. It's not about territory, it's about cultures and ethnic groups. And people. You cannot cut between Nigeria and Cameroon and said This is Cameron and it's in Nigeria. No. You cannot do that–

R: Yeah.

M: You have to consider the people who live there, you know. But then they were like, Wow, this is what it is I'm to get.

M: So today the problems are linked to those things from long time ago and it's still going on today.

R: Yeah. I honestly like a lot of what I've learned about African history is things that I've learned in college. Because in high school and elementary school, they don't teach you much about it. They just say, Okay, the slaves came on these ships and they came here. That's what people, African-Americans.

R: And I was like, that's not right.

R: So then when I got to college, I actively took African history classes, like trying to learn language, trying to pieces up where I can get it. Without. One thing that I've noticed is that a lot of these papers, a lot of these research articles are like textbooks. They're all written by white scholars.

R: Like the idea of people telling someone else's story that doesn't sit well with me. But then again, like colonialism doesn't just go away because you're writing about it in a different respect, like you need to have.

R: You need to empower those people from those countries to write their own history. For it to be the truth.

M: You know, like we have it. We have writers in Africa, the world about things, but you don't see them enough in the US. You don't study them, you know.

R: So so many systemic things that just needs to be unpacked.

M: Yeah, but little by little, I love what you're doing. So it's great. I love the research you're doing. It's just great. So keep it up, keep going and ask or as many as possible.

R: Well, it's nice connecting with you and chatting with you today.

M: My pleasure.

Radhia Abdirahman

Moutarro