Ahmed

Ahmed

Oral history from Somalia to Minnesota

Ahmed is a Somali professor at Macalester College in Minnesota. In this interview, he speaks about the Somali diasporic community, reflects on his role as an educator, and considers various challenges that Somalia faces such as corruption and the lack of interest in education. Towards the end of the interview, he comments on the difficulties that Somali women face even in a country with more opportunities like the United States.

Late 1900s

Minnesota

Ahmed (A)

Radhia (R)

A: Somalis don't go to libraries and they don't read about these things. So they, yeah, they were suits now in America and bands and all of that. And women wear nice clothes even though they're all covered up and know what that means.

A: But they [Somalis] don't want to go to a library you don't see Somalis in libraries and places like that. So how would they know anything, even in their own society?

A: In your community if you just asked a few people and asked them, do you know by name, by the name of Somali person, by the name of an adult, Abdullah Azzam. And my bet would be that nine out of ten would say, What's that? This is the founding president of the Republic.

A: Every kid, American kid knows George Washington. Right? This [is recent history. This is, this is in my lifetime, mister Eastern history.

A: So leadership is one of the critical reasons why the Somali society has failed. Leadership allows man would show you the difference in terms of the way he handled. He was the founding president for seven years.

A: And I have this book, you should read this book. It's called “Take that Note” It's called Africa's first Democrats. Africa's first Democrats at some of the new book, it's barely three years old, four years old. You should really thank you for yeah, that sounds good. Order it off of Amazon.

R: Do you have any articles that you'd recommend?

A: I mean, I wrote a lot. So if you just Google Somali articles, but the two of us, you can find plenty and then you can choose from.We have also there is a journal called Bildhaan. It’s an International Journal of Somali studies. Most of it is in English. We're now celebrating the 20th anniversary of that journal this year.

A: You've seen it as it is on big website. So if you just pulled down in there, it will come at you from 2001 to the present. And you can, you can, you can review that and see what articles you might want to read. So then I have written quite a few, some of those articles through the years. But there are many, many, many scholars, some of them Somali and then British, American and others who have written about this. From anything from environmental questions to issues of gender to business biographies. I mean, there are all kinds of things, so that's also a good place to begin to build on that journal.

R: Thank you for sharing that. I'm going to do some research after this is very interesting. I don't have any other questions or anything else. Any final story that you wanted to share? Some final remarks?

A: Yeah. I mean, for me, as I said, the beginning well, I question or a treasured the family I came from and the Somali identity. But it does become, that has become less important for me. Have a look like Somalia and speak Somali and all of them.

A: But my values are different. And they are values that are quite sometimes quite antithetical to the way that Somalis live their lives. [I am a ] very private person. Except when I'm speaking to crowds. I have become a synthetic person in many ways. There are many other things in my personality now that are not Somali and therefore leaving Somalia was a blessing. Then coming to the two, to England to grow up and become come of age. And then the United States, four degrees here. And then becoming a professor.

A: Probably the, if I may say so the most distinguishing Somali person so far in the academy in the world. I became a full professor. I became a dean for 17 years. I became an endowed professor with an endowed chair for the past 18 years, 20 years. None of that has happened amongst all of those at one time.

A: So that's not because I'm a Somali. That's because I had opportunities which were not available and Somali society and ambitions that were not available. And so modern society and cultural contexts which was [sic] not available in Somali society.

A: That's something is still available for people who want to do the work–heavy lifting. You have to do the work.

A: I am glad to be here and be part of the culture of the United States. I use what I still have of Somali culture in a positive way. But I have gone beyond that. I think 30 years ago really.

A: And I created this journal where there was no academic journal or some early studies before I created this 20 years ago. There are 20-some universities that are affiliated with this around the world. From University of California to other University of London and other places and digital University, I moved university all of these but part of the International Editorial Advisory Board.
A: So this country has been very good to me and the experience has been quite sweet and wonderful, liberating.

A: I wish Muslim artists will bite the bullet and move on beyond Somali traditional culture and mentality and get into the world in a big way. If they do that, then they might be able to celebrate their country themselves.

A: If they don't. The past, it would be the future of so many people. Particularly bad. I mean, it's, it's the worst country in the world. I don't know whether you'll notice if you, it's the most corrupt country in the world.

A: There is an organization around the world, that research organization called Transparency International. And every year they look at the least corrupt and the most corrupt. And then they have a league table for that. And at the bottom are always Somalis.

A: So that's disheartening to see something like that. A year after year after year. They cannot get their politics organized themselves to become part of the world. The rest of Africa sees them as a shameful place.

A: That's what the Ugandan president Savini said to the EU about ten years ago, something like that, or 12 or 15 years ago, and said that the Somalis are the same of the African continent. And he's right. I mean, it's just unbelievable.

A: They're sort of instruction. I mean, nothing works. Everything is a mess. They are not dumb people. But there is something in their culture and their mentality. I think that is so self-destructive, I think as a society. And if you were born there, then we'd never left there. You wouldn't be the person you are today. You'll be in gambling someplace and Ghibli or some place like that.

A: Where's your father from?

R: Brundtland? I don't know. That's pretty exactly yeah.

A: . It's the same sloughing happening that much if the basic life. Have you ever been there? I hadn't been to the hospital but I went to her guests that boiler, right. Right. Yeah. I mean, pollutants the same. Exactly. There's nothing different. I mean, the claims, this is Somaliland.

A: This has been like the claims. Egotistical claims are different. What you are an educating handle on what you saw in gambling unimportant man had besides what you will see in Brooklyn. It's the same. If you go to Mogadishu or Kissmetrics, the same whole project is a failure.

A: Somalia thinks that they are going to break away and they are different. A lot of that map, they can, they can do much. And they haven't realized that even if they wanted to do that, they don't know how to work towards it seriously.

A: You're going to engage the bottom and displace. You know what they talk about. It's just a local thing that this group, that group, this, that, that, that, that's nothing. And you saw what? The freedom of women in the workplace. So it's just a horrible.

A: So why would I–I mean, I tried to I ran for president in Somalia in 2012, trying to help and push things to a level. But there's no, there's nobody to talk to them about that level. Snobbery.

A: Everybody is in a basement and talking about things that are so childish, so divisive. Nobody's seeing the great problems.

A: I remember as a candidate, I went to, I went to visit the largest refugee camp in the world at that time, 2012, almost 0.5 million Somalis in that place. Some of them had been there already for 15 or 20 years. They went there to look at as a candidate to spend a day, two days and two nights there talking to different groups and all of that. So huge and it's 0.5 million city. It's all tense and really horrible quality fed by the international charity organizations.

A: So when I came back to Mogadishu to speak to people about this as a candidate, what I saw and what we need to do. People in the, in the, in the parliament were telling me, “Professor Samatar, you're always talking about these poor people. That's the responsibility of the international community.”

A: Don't talk to us about that. What do we want you to talk to us about is how you're going to buy my vote will cost you $5 thousand or $10 thousand. Do you want me to vote for you in planning? That's the mentality. This did not realize is that in camps and all of this, this is the responsibility of international charity organization.

A: These are their own people, half a million people. This is what I meant leaving Somalia. And so while the culture wasn't liberation, liberation, and you should work out on that to make success out of your life. And that'd be dragged back into this.

R: I think from my personal experience, I was like, I'm thankful that I came from an educated family. You know, I–I recognize that that's not the normal recognition that having all of my parents, siblings be educated is not something that's prominent in the Somali community. I think that has influenced what I wanna do my career, how I want to function as a member of society and hearing the things of what's going on back in Somalia, it makes me want to go back, but I also recognize that the systems that are in place are not built to be fixed overnight.

R: And it's not something that I can go back–and just because I'm educated now, because they have some sort of pull or torque out here in the United States and in North America. I can't go back there and like fix that many years. I'm destruction and corruption.

A: Right, What are you a senior now?

R: I'm a junior. Junior now at the University of Kansas.

A: Yeah, 20 years ago, I think it was maybe more. I came there to give lectures. The African city center, there was a man from the Caribbean who was the director at that time. Big white hair, short fellow with a very nice person. And they invited me when I was in New York teaching. I went there for two days and give two talks. Like Lawrence is a nice university. So what are you studying?

R: I'm studying human biology and global international studies.

A: Okay. Maybe, yeah, maybe you guys can, can get into public health or something like that.

R: That's my goal. My goal stands for Public Health. Started looking at grad school programs for next year.

A: Yeah. Well, I think you to think, I mean, you have to develop a different culture. You have to develop a culture of reading, culture of reading. Of course, if you develop a culture of reading, then you will be able to move in different directions and hook up with the rest of the world.

A: If you don't do that and become an oral person like the Somalis and just talking Somalis about monger, then all that education will dissipate. Okay?

A: So this last year and that's left for you seriously. And a culture and an organize yourself so that you are using this tool to know about the world, your field and other fields too.

A: Educated persons, not just having degrees, [an] educated person is someone who is on the track of being a student for the rest of your life. I see you teach and share with others when you become a student for the rest of your life.

A: These are the things that Somalis don't understand. They just don't. So you need to move out of that and get into that kind of lifestyle. If you do that, then I think the opportunities will come your way and the choices would be multiple and the likelihood to be God, god willing life would be a joy to, to, to, to live. If you drag yourself for the drag you back into Somali mentality and culture you are done for?

R: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly speaking, at my school, I go to a big state school [the University of Kansas]. There are not many similarities. I can count them on my hands. It's just to me, my family, my brother and my cousin. And then I want to say to other boys, yeah, I don't see any risk Somali women in. I think a part of it is because to go to school and warrants and to actually integrate into society in Lawrence [Kansas] community, you need to eliminate waste and hope that still it's 2021.

R: And women, girls my age are not moving out of the house and ongoing school. That's what I think. I think it's really sad that the opportunities that I've got at this university tuition I would not have gotten had I gone to the community school, my aunt's house or back home?

A: Yes. Yes, yes, no, no. The opportunities. It's one of the great blessings of this country. And then had its racism. Big time in this country. Still. Part of the problem for African-Americans. They skipped a small sliver at the top of this, the vast majority still have not understood that if you are going to ask for equality, you have to add equality.

A: It's not given you have to add, it is and adding it means then you bring some assets to the table. The tragedy in African American society is that it has, life has become a series of complaints. Complaints they did disliked, they're doing this to us. They did it start.

A: Okay. Okay. Okay. Question has to be, how do you get out of that?

R: Yeah, how are you going to move forward?

A: And you can't, in American society, you can never go forward unless you become–you become educated them. And this is one of the [most] highly educated societies in the world.

A: Competition is stiff, okay? So you get to do that. And if you have a family that is just falling apart generation after generation and getting involved in things that have nothing to do with the quality of life.

A: Then those African-Americans who–who see that and then they get out of this. They move out. They move out. And what else can they do? You can't drag it. Big gigantic ship full of trash. How do you–how do you pull that by yourself? You can't.

A: So I feel sorry for the African-American elite because where are the rest? You can find a small group of Somalis like that too. But where is the rest? Nowhere to be seen.

A: And if you've seen them, they don't want to move. They can’t fit with them because that means disaster.

A: I cannot overemphasize the importance of education as far as you can go, and then make it part of your own life for the rest of your life.

A: If you have a boyfriend or you get married, you want to make sure that he doesn't drag you down. He doesn't drag you back into the Somali mess. That you and your way you are becoming fully independent woman, you drive your life forward.

A: And if you have children, then they will see that example. Yeah. That's–that's the record of your own family. They will see the example.

A: And then I used to tell Bashir, your uncle. I used to tell him that you can see people like that. The two people that I know very well in the family besides your grandmother is Bashir and Haddan they are know reasonably well and they are, they have excelled quite impressively.

A: I'm sure there are others, maybe your mother and others. But look, look, look ahead.

A: Excellence is a moving target. So look ahead. Keep pursuing that. Keep pursuing that, keep pursuing that. Don't look back except once in a while to sober you up and to see how far you have come and how far you still have to go. Okay?

A: You do that then you [are] in a country where it's still the opportunities are available and you will excel, life would be worthwhile. Then you might be able here and there to help individuals when you can, okay?

A: But first, liberate your life and get your life going. And learning until death. Learning is a lifetime project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a family for us is close family because I don't know whether your grandmother or your other uncles have told you, but we come from the same root.

A: You're my, my grandmother and your grandmother's grandmother. Bashir’s grandma. These were sisters. So the [indistinguishable] sisters?

R:Yeah.

A: My grandmother. Your mother, grandmother, Bashir's father, Mousa, grandmother, and mother. All of these were sisters. So we come from a very basic unit together in the Ghibli area.

A: Then, but then the Habilis move to [indistinguishable]. But we stayed in Ghibli for tomorrow. Your grandmother and my mother and my–my family and other Ghibli. But she was families’ bottom of folks.

A: We are from Ghibli. Just more of this, but so do to our grandmothers. So we are linked together. But then on the father's side also, we are linked together. All of us. Your mother–your mother's mother, sorry. Bashir and his father, myself and my father. And he said all we are also on the fathers said the male side, we're also from the same family.

A: So they bought up together like this. Then your mother's father and your mother's father? And my mother. My mother were also from the same [family]. Your grandmother's father? My mother and father also from the same unit. The group.

A: So we're like, I mean, it's like this [Ahmed shows interlocking hands]. Whichever way you–whichever way you cut it, It's the same thing. The family has been very most honorable as family has been very into detail, has been very successful, very good. So I'm very proud of them.

R: So when, when, when [indistinguishable name] goes back to Ghibli, you all try to see each other?

A: Whenever we go, we do. Most of the older people have died, so they are not here anymore. Had a mother who was one of the aunts. She died last year, I think, she my aunt and I when I was a young boy I used to go and see her and she would give me shillings and things like that.

A: Then I remember growing [up] underneath your mother's mother. And I are about the same age. So they got married very young. Quite young. But yeah, we have memories of togetherness. We were kids. Memories of that.

A: The greatest–I think–opportunity for Hardar was to move out of Ghibli and come to Mogadishu and marry your grandfather.

A: I think he was one of the first educated people in the country. I think he went to school in Sudan and then to England to be trained in the military. He is an exceptionally capable person. And his younger brother Tujava was educating the states.

A: So there is a cluster of these two families. Their family and our family. Different than anything you see in Ghibli. Really different. So many of us became very successful on the highest levels. So we want the next generation, people like you [Radhia] and others to pick that pace.

Radhia Abdirahman

English

Video

Somalia

Minnesota