Abel

Abel

Oral history from Nicaragua to Wichita, Kansas.

Abel lives in Wichita, KS and is the son of two Nicaraguan parents. He was a McNair Scholar during his time at the University of Kansas: he has also traveled to Nicaragua. He appreciates how his parents shared Nicaraguan food, and celebrations.

2000s

Wichita, Kansas

Aron Muci

English

Video

Abel (A):
Aron (M):

A: When I think of stories that sort of attached myself to my identity, I think a lot of our celebrations, I think one of the things that I like about my parents is that they always, even though we live in the United States, were born here, and you know they immigrated here, I think that they still taught us and embrace their culture from Nicaragua.

A: And they taught us a lot about the cultural beliefs and celebrations and the way that a lot of people from Nicaragua, the food, the music, was always something that they shared with us. And I think that always helped us, at least for me, at least identify with that.

A: And I've always had a huge pride in that. I know that for, especially a lot of people in the United States, it's very typical to when you assume you look at a person that looks hispanic or whatever, a lot of people assume that they're from Mexico because a large portion of them are usually Mexican.

A: And I remember always being a little kid and when people would say that, I would always correct them and say “No, I'm Nicaragua and my parents are from Nicaragua.

A: And that was always instinctual to me because I wanted to ensure that no different, my culture is different from what people will assume it to be. I think I've always had that identity and I think that it comes from my parents, you know, through the, we call it the purisima, which is a very important celebration in December.

A: It stretches from the end of November to December 7th. I think that for Nicaragua it's a celebration of the Virgin Mary. And for Nicaragua, the Virgin Mary of Nicaragua is the Virgin of the Immaculate Conception. And so it's a very huge celebration.

A: And so every day along that week, seven to nine days span. Every night, we have certain prayers and songs that we did. And some of my earliest memories are always going to be me and my sisters and my parents all doing this every day. Singing the songs, being the prayer, being together and being collected.
A: It so happens that my birthday falls on what they refer to as the Gritería, which is kind of when the whole country as a whole goes out and celebrates it together so people can have stalls and a lot of people will have their own kind of altars and stuff dedicated to the Virgin Mary. And people can come along, they go out, they saying they're singing all the songs that were specially created for celebration and they go out. There's, It's basically like a huge party in the streets.

A: And the way my parents always describe it as just a beautiful moment where everybody is connected and together. I think for me, having my birthday fall on a very special day, my mom always said that it's one of the greatest gifts. And I think for me that's always sort of attached myself to my culture. And I think that that's a huge thing for me when I think of, you know, part of my identity in that sense, as a Nicaraguan.

A: And I think that, I think about that a lot in terms of other ways of how I identify, I think that as a person in the Midwest, they think that, you know, I think benefiting from living in Wichita, which is one of the most populated cities in terms of the Latino population, I think that that has certainly helped because you certainly see a lot more than I know, like a lot of other places in Kansas. I know a lot of other people who don't see that many [Latinos]. And so you're just surrounded with a lot more traditional white Caucasian people.

A: But I was lucky enough to see a lot more of those people. And I think that it definitely helps because you feel like you're not as alone or isolated. And so I think that that helps a lot. As a first generation immigrant, I guess I didn't really realize the weight of that… really until a lot later.

A: So when I got older and I really started to see, like, the significance, I think for me, you know, talking with my parents, I realize a lot of the things as I'm getting older, the things that they did when I, when I, when they were my age. And seeing the parallels of how our lives are very different. And how when they were in high school growing up, stories of them trying to go to college and that stuff, how they studied. All those different things are stories that they shared with us as motivation and, um, you know, trying to inspire us to achieve high aspirations.

A: And I think for me that was always something that was very important. I think I always knew that being a part of–like as the Latinx community, I think there is a lot of expectation because of the way there's a lot of racial tension, especially with immigrants in the United States. I think there's always, for some reason the pressure to impress a lot of the times.

A: You have to impress in order to somehow get acceptance or to somehow show, Oh, just because I'm Latino. Just as worthy or are just as capable as, you know. Another person. I think that that's something that a lot of minorities face is this idea of, oh, you have to be the smartest person in the room or you have to have a huge accomplishment so that as, you know, as a race together, as an enthicity, we are able to show people or prove like no, we're capable people were hardworking, are smart where dedicated, passionate, creative. Hey, I think that that holds a lot of pressure. Certainly. And definitely now, some argue that it shouldn't have to be that way.

A: But there's certainly that feeling every now and then, now and again. But I think going into college for me, I think a lot [about] being a McNair Scholar and for me being a first-generation college student. And embracing part of my identity, seeing that my parents were able to come here and…an enormous sacrifice at an age where they were still extremely young.

A: I think about it all the time. I mean, at my age, you know, they were coming here. And I think about that, what could, I could imagine trying to move to a completely different country with a language that I don't even know at my age sounds like an intimidating task.

A: And so for me, being a McNair Scholar and having an opportunity to attain your PhD, a very high degree, a high honor. Something that very, very, very little Latinx and African Americans have really been deprived of just because of how much of just education and access have been given to a lot of white Americans over the past several decades.

A: And so just being part of a very exclusive group always is a huge honor of mine. And I think for a lot of reasons, I always think about that—of being a part of the Latinx community is a huge honor.

A: And I know that even though I have a lot of privileges, being born here, a citizen, my entire family are citizens, I think that there's still a lot of personal struggles. A lot of people who aren't as lucky as I was and a lot of other people. I think about them a lot.

A: I think about them because I still identify with the culture. I think when my parents and I, we were able to go to Nicaragua because of that benefit. Something that a lot of people can't do, were able to go to Nicaragua and visit my cousins and my aunts and uncles.

A: And I think that experience, even at a young age is very interesting. I remember going–because obviously we've gone before—and we first went when I was about eight years old and I remember bits and pieces about that, but I wasn't old enough to really encapsulate a lot of the differences of living here [in America] and there [Nicaragua].

A: We were able to go back when I was a lot older, around 14, 15 years old. And I think that time when I'm, when I really started to see kind of how huge of a world of difference it is. And how much of a just cultural shifts it is from going to places like Nicaragua to the United States. And just seeing the different ways of life of how it made me see the incredible amount of privilege and fortune–so many things that I think a lot of people take for granted.
A: It definitely put a lot of things in my mind in perspective. The amount of benefits that I've been able to receive and a large part because of my parents again, taking that sacrifice and having the courage to do that. And so there's a lot of that that comes. And that's why I think there's also a huge motivator for me to not squander that type of opportunity and to take advantage of being able to be here.

A: And so I think a lot of that is definitely attached to my identity. I think a lot now–I have my own personal feelings about, you know, growing up. I think what—I think of a lot, especially now as I'm getting older, I think about how when I was a little kid before I started school, my mom used to say, “Oh, you spoke a lot more Spanish.”

A: When you were younger, obviously, tucked into my mom all the time. I was able to speak a lot more Spanish. But once I got into school, I mean, I was just so surrounded by speaking English that it just became more primary to me.

A: And I think the sad part that I feel is that I don't ever really remember a time being more confident in speaking Spanish than I did in English. And that's always been in conflicting feeling in a lot of ways. Because I remember going to school and being in ESOL. And I think that as a program, the intentions of the program are good. I think it is supposed to help a lot of immigrant children–their parents don't speak English. So the assumption is, oh, well, this should help them not fall too far behind and they can help them speak, learn, read, write in English.

A: While I definitely see it from that perspective, I also see it from a way where I felt like, you know, in a way sort of feeling like, oh, it's like Spanish is something that I have to put aside. And instead I have to focus on proving that I can speak English and have that as a primary language.

A: I remember very early on because I–for first, second, third grade, I was speaking English almost basically fluently. Mostly because like I said before, I had two older sisters and so we always spoke English to each other because they've been in school for a lot longer, so now they're just used to it with their friends.

A: And so I was– always remember having good English skills. But I was still in the program for a large portion of the first few years. I had to take the ESOL tests–every at the end of the year. I remember that in order for me to technically get out because I remember in sixth grade, they had put me in ESOL and I remember my mom being very upset about that because she was like, You don't need that. Like, I don't understand why they would put you there. And I remember we had to go downtown and we had to fill out this form to essentially get them to not put me in there.

A: And I have this very vivid memory of being there at the desk with the woman that signed the paper. And I remember she said, you know, obviously this is a big decision, like you're going to have to work really hard to make sure that you don't need it. Which at the time I laughed about it because I was like, yeah, but I'd always stuck with me because I don't know–I think that idea of like, well, I obviously don't need the program and so I think that idea of like, well, you should work harder as if I didn't already have enough skill or control to clearly prove that I didn't need it.

A: But even then, like almost the whole sixth grade year, I was still in the ESOL program. I was still doing and taking that class until towards the end when I guess somebody was at the school was like, oh hey, we just realized that this student shouldn’t be in here and then I had to switch to the regular language arts class.

A: But even during my seventh grade year, I had seventh grade language arts, but I also had a supplemental English course. And I remember just being in that class and just always like it was basically a free period because I had no struggle doing any assignments. And I remember the teacher being there and she would say, you know, I remember she told me one time she was like, “I have no idea why you're here. Like you do not struggle at all. Like, I honestly have no idea why they put you in this class.”

A: And I was like, yeah, I don't know. So I think for me. And even then after that obviously didn't have any supplemental classes. But in high school I still like to take the ESOL exam because ESOL exam, in order for you to completely clear it, you have to have a perfect score or a near perfect score across the different categories, not once but two years in a row. So it doesn't matter if you have two perfect scores. If they're not consecutive, doesn't count you stuff to retake the test at the end of the year.

A: I was able to do it, I think by my sophomore year in high school because I remember like the extra period of time I didn't leave class, I had to go into this room and take this test for a bunch of other people. And what I thought was really funny is like I remember there's a speaking part where they play like a cassette tape or whatever and they say something and you're supposed to repeat it.

A: And I remember something that was recorded that even in the way that they said it in English was wrong, it was incorrect. And I remember being like, well, I think it's ironic that I'm taking this test to improve my English when even the recording itself isn't proper.

A: And so there's a lot of feelings in that. And I think that growing up now, I feel like having this. I don't want to call it subliminal message, but the message of–I had to prove time and time again that I could speak English. And English was the most important thing that I had to know in order to succeed.

A: So part of that, I think also makes me feel bad because I know that as a result, my Spanish isn't as good as a lot of other people because I very rarely use it. I only really use it to communicate with my parents. And if I ever go to Nicaragua or I'm with my cousins, then obviously I have to use it.

A: And I think help working has helped a lot. I think working, communicating with more people and speak Spanish has certainly helped me be more confident because I used to be very insecure about it. I used to not want to speak Spanish to people because I was always self-conscious about it.

A: Because I knew that if I made a mistake or I said something grammatically incorrect, that would be made fun of or because there's a huge thing in the Latinx community, especially from older people to be able to speak Spanish. Because that is part of our culture, that is part of what distinguishes us. And so for as a Latinx person to not be able to speak Spanish, it feels like part of you is something wrong.

A: And so over time I've been able to be more confident. There are certainly things that I would like to improve because I would like, you know, whenever I have children, I'm able to teach them how to speak Spanish because I do want them to have that skill because I do think that it's incredibly valuable, not just being able to communicate with people who speak Spanish, but it is a cultural thing.

A: It is something that is part of, you know, their heritage. And I think that it would be a shame to me to feel like not being able to share that with them. And so I've always certainly had those feelings, I guess, about my English and Spanish and I think that as an identity, I think that those are things that I've always have had sort of lingering around.

A: But as I get older, I think that there's certainly an ability to improve on those things. I'm feeling more satisfied and I think recognizing that those things and saying, “okay, these are things that I went through and hopefully I've learned a lot from them and being able to share that experience. And I know how that feels.

A: And what I feel very happy about is, for example, my nephew. I feel like something I always thought was really, really cool was whenever he spoke at a very, very young age, he understood the difference [between] speaking English or Spanish. And he would speak English to me, to his mom, to his aunt, like he knew who to speak English to.

A: But when it came to my parents or to his dad, he would speak Spanish. You would know that oh, they understand better when I say it this way as opposed to this way. And it always impressed me that even at a very young age he was able to sort of put those things together.

A: And I hope that, you know, every once in a while, I'll ask him, “How do you say this in Spanish?” So that he will say it and a lot of the time he will get it right or he'll make a couple mistakes, and me and my mom will try and correct him. And I think that it's important to see that.

A: And so I, I guess in a way I hope that him growing up, he doesn't grow up feeling the way I feel where it's like not having that side of your culture and your heritage, but being able to embrace in how both a part of your life.

A: So I think overall, I guess those are the main things that are part of my identity and culture. And I think that is a huge part of it.

A: And I certainly also don't want to say that a person who is Latinx that doesn't speak Spanish at all is any less or any less part of the culture because a lot of the time sometimes you live in a family through adoption or something like that and you just don't have access.

A: There are a lot of people from different cultures that, you know, don't know Korean or Vietnamese or whatever language their original family would normally speak. They just don't. And so there is a little bit of stigma there that I think that there's something that should be a little more talked about for sure.

A: So I don't want to say necessarily that if a person doesn't, that makes them bad or, or, or anything like that, I just think from my feelings that's something that I've always had to grapple with myself.

A: And so I think for me that I just would hope that if you have an opportunity to do that, you have the choice to.

A: I think overall, I guess those are kind of bits and pieces of stories and different things that I kind of have, that have formed the way that I sort of identify, I guess, from that side.

Aron Muci (M): Wonderful, thanks so much for sharing all that information, Abel. I have one question for you and then we'll wrap up.

M: No pressure in this question. So if you don't have anything to say, it's no big deal. We can move on.

M: I'm curious to know if you've learned anything about your cell with respect to your identity or with respect to anything else that you've discussed here today, in moving to Hays, Kansas? If that transition from away from Wichita to a smaller city in Kansas has enabled you to see anything or change your perspective in any way? Or if it's been confirming or in some way just kinda reassuring to show you how close and how connected things are. But you can, if you have anything to share about your transitions at Hays, Kansas from Wichita, that would be kind of interesting.

A: Uh-huh. Yeah. I think I think this past year as a whole. I don't know how much of it is obviously being in a pandemic. And so you're a lot in your house a lot more than you probably would be, but it certainly has put a lot of people in a very introspective mood of seeing themselves and spending a lot more time in here.

A: So if you sort of start to think, oh, what am I doing with my life? How are things going?

A: And I think that for me being on my own for the first time, developing, maturing. I've taken a lot of, you know, I've enjoyed the process because it's helped me sort of what you've said–learn a lot more about myself.

A: And there are certainly things that I've started to really learn about myself and really see in a broader way, both in a lot of different ways. And I think that that has certainly been a lot.

A: I mean, moving to a smaller town, there's a huge difference in culture and people that you're seeing interacting. So before, I mean, living at Wichita: it's social. It's the most populated city in Kansas. You are seeing so many people, different people from different backgrounds. And that is really huge.

A: And living in a smaller town like Hays, where the majority of the population is white, obviously you're seeing a lot less diversity. Being obviously in college and college town. You definitely see a little bit more because it's a university and so it's a little bit more open in that way.

A: But I mean, if you are just walking around all of the stores, you're going to see a lot more, a lot less diversity. And I think that that is a little bit of a difference in that sense.

A: And I've spoken to people that are like, yeah, when I was younger, I didn't have that many [Latino] people. I was the only [Latino] person. I was the only Mexican or something like that.

A: And for me, I used to be made fun of or I was picked on or I was isolated and so I felt different. And so learning a lot more of that and seeing that sort of difference of city to a small city, it certainly has seen a lot of stuff.


A: And being in [the McNair’s Scholar] program where, I mean, there were about four of us that were Latino. And I felt really excited about that. But I also realized in our program that there wasn't a single black student there.

A: And I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but it was something that was interesting to me. And it was definitely something that–it was curious. And so there were definitely a lot of interesting things.

A: We were able to have diversity in psychology class and we talked a lot about racial issues and LGBT Q class. And it was such an interesting open class where we were able to really talk about how we were feeling about stuff and have this open conversation.

A: Especially in the city [Lawrence, Kansas] and the [University of Kansas] campus there are a lot of minorities that have faced a lot of racism and just blatant discrimination.

A: And it's sad to hear, really sad to hear a lot of what people have gone through. And I fortunately haven't really experienced that myself. But it's definitely saddening to see that in a lot of ways.

A: But a lot of people certainly worked through and worked really hard to make sure that that doesn't keep them down because, I mean, you have to keep working and moving forward.

A: So in that sense, that makes it definitely puts things in perspective that there's a lot of, I guess, privilege in being, like I said before being surrounded with more diversity. And that's why there's a huge call for it, because it's important to freely associate yourself with people from different backgrounds to really understand them and to really see their perspective and their views and how their differences.

A: And then not to see it as a threat or as being afraid [of diversity[. But seeing, oh, this person is very different than a lot of people have a lot of stereotypes because of the media or whatever.

A: I think we're seeing real people in really talking to them and really understanding them. A lot of the time helps. But I think that that's something that I certainly have seen moving out here [Hays, Kansas].

A: And I think overall, the introspective, there are certain things that I've certainly have learned and seen that I think moving forward will certainly help me develop more and become more confident in myself and who I am and all of that I think is a huge benefit for sure.

M: I have one other question, and this is in relation to your Twitter. And just trying to think about how often it is that you post what I'll just describe as “political post” or in one way that is dealing with politics and current events and politics of today.

M: I'm just curious if you can speak a little bit to why it's been important for you to work on expressing your political voice. And what that's…and If you've ever learned anything about yourself in that way.

A: Yeah. It's certainly something that, um, has become more a part of being–I think I've always had feelings and ideas even at a very young age. I remember even if freshmen, sophomore year with a lot of different issues coming up, I think that that is very important.

A: And I think that I had a lot of certain political mindset. I think that I've always been somebody who values conversation, who values hearing other people's perspectives.

A: Even if I don't agree with them. I find it because, I mean, I'm a person who is very inquisitive and wants to understand people.

A: So understanding people's perspectives a lot of the time helps me see, okay, so I think of it this way. They think of it that way and it certainly helps develop that.

A: For me, as I get older, especially with how things have been the past few years, I think that there's a huge push, especially for the younger generation, to have a more open mindset to a lot of different things.

A: And I was raised–I've always said this–I was raised to respect people and I was raised to–I was never raised to hate on anybody.

A: I remember meeting people from all different walks of life, whether they had different sexuality, different races, different whatever and I never had a harsh judgment of people.

A: I always have this very early memory of being in sixth grade in our science class. And that was when the pregnant man, who was big in the news. And I remember sitting at a table and we're all talking about earlier. That's crazy.

A: Because at the time, I mean, you didn't understand like, why that was I think I remember my teacher saying like, Oh, it's because he was a woman before, but now as a man, but he was pregnant before. And so that's sort of how it happened.

A: And I remember when that [thought became] processed I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I didn't really think of it in a broader sense or anything that was I didn't think of it necessarily as abnormal. I was just like, Wow, that's really interesting.

A: I've always had that ideal and I've always been somebody who, you know, I'm a huge person that wants to get along with a lot of peoples. So the last thing I wanna do is ever make somebody feel uncomfortable or, you know, in that way.

A: So I've always been careful about what I say, how I say things.

A: Especially now with how people use slurs and stuff like that. I've always been somebody who when somebody says, “Oh, you shouldn't say that because that hurts or offends somebody.”

A: I was very receptive to that extremely early. If I heard somebody say, Well, yeah, I know that sucks. Don't say that because it may offend this person or this group or offend me. And I wouldn't say it again because I was like, oh no, like I'm not going to ever make somebody feel bad or I'm never ever going to make somebody feel– offend somebody.

A: So I think that that's something that has certainly grown to be more tolerant of other people to being receptive.

A: And so I think using a political voice is important a lot of the time, especially as a minority. Because a lot of the culture of the US is built on the identity of white America. And I think that trying to cross those bridges and actually make it the melting pot that it claims to be, uou have to be able to engage in these conversations.

A: And a lot of the time, you have political stuff where, you know, because a lot of people aren't politically active through privilege, I think is a huge difference.

A: So for example, like I said before, I have a huge privilege being somebody who was born here; I'm a citizen; all of my immediate family are citizens. So looking at an issue like immigration, immigration doesn't really affect us directly because we don't have to worry about deportations. We don't have to worry about does this law change anything here or there. It doesn't really do anything for us.

A: But again, that's part of the thing where I have– my best friend does get impacted by that. Other people that I know definitely get impacted by that. And so being able to speak to them, understanding, I sit on a position of privilege that I have the not necessarily the responsibility, but more so like I feel like, you know, almost I don't want to say an obligation because that would insinuate that you if you don't do it, it's bad. But I do feel like an obligation that I have to do it because there are a lot of other people that would like to but can.

A: And that's why I've put a lot of attention to learning about different things, learning about different issues about or know about an issue. I want to learn more about it. I want to be well-informed. I want to be understanding and explain this because a lot of people don't take that time to really learn about the complexities of stuff.

A: And I find a lot of the social media stuff, especially with the past four years. I mean, with the president [Trump] that we had, I felt like I was almost always having to say, here's why this is wrong or here's why what is happening here is an issue.

A: Because it's easy to just read a headline and take it for face value. But not understand exactly why.

A: In the grander scheme of things, it doesn't make sense. And I felt like I wanted to express that to some capacity.

A: Obviously on social media, it often feels like you're yelling or whatever, but I'm always open to those conversations.

A: I feel like now with how much of a divide there is…I have a friend of mine who knows how political I am, and we both agree on a lot of issues. He's like, how do you feel?

A: Because a lot of the conversation now is how different are people because of the divide of Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, whatever they say. Oh, we're more split than we've ever been.

A: Part of me, because he asked, Do you feel like things have actually felt different?, I feel like in some ways there is because I remember even in 2016 before Trump was elected, I think that I remember having a lot of conversations with Republicans. What is your stance on this or that? And really gauging having a conversation, having a debate, not an argument, but just understanding what their position is.

A: I feel like over time that has shifted from if you're different from me, like we can't have a conversation because I have to try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. And not that one side isn't wrong.

A: Because I think that there are a lot of issues nowadays that have become political issues for no reason. I do think that there are some issues where you're just like, I don't understand why you believe this way.

A: But I would still like a conversation because I want to understand where you're coming from. Why do you believe it or see it this way, as opposed to why a lot of other people think of it this way.

A: But I feel like those conversations are harder to have because it's more sensationalized, it's more immediate anger.

A: And I've had people who maybe a few years ago I would have been okay with having a conversation with but now are just so entrenched—because everybody is in their own echo chambers–and so you're not able to have a conversation because people don't really see that idea of, let's understand each other and try and see what's going on here. And I feel like that's not really happening.

A: But I don't know. I don't know what the future is. I feel like obviously there is a divide and I don't know how that will get rectified, but I do think that I'm a little bit more, I guess calmer. Obviously, past this election, but I haven't been posting as much as I used to.

A: But there is still a lot of–there's still a large push.

A: I feel like with their younger generation, with Millennials and Gen Z, I feel like we see a lot of injustice everywhere and legitimate injustice everywhere. And I think that we growing up want to be part of an inclusive, tolerant society–a true, United States of America that isn't divided.

A: I feel like part of that is understanding and being there.

A: When you see injustice regardless of whether it is in your community,and saying, “Hey, this is wrong, this needs to be fixed or this can't continue.”

A: I think that that's a huge part of it because, you know, being a minority, you see that a lot, you see a lot of injustices and discrimination and racism and all this other stuff. And you just want to hopefully live in a society that isn't that.

A: So I feel like that's part of another reason I guess, that explains kind of thought process of being vocal about it and sharing that and saying, “this is wrong and we need to understand, respect people and understand like, you know, if it's not your life and it's not hurting you, that it shouldn't really make you upset. And it shouldn't have this reaction of immediate anger, hate, or fear, whatever it is.”

A: But embracing people and just letting people live freely. And I think that that's kind of what I do a lot, at least on social media, is trying to invoke that and speak more freely about those type of things.

M: Okay. Wonderful. Thanks so much. Abel. I don't have any other questions for you or anything like that. So we have gone for about an hour here.

M: Do you have any questions for me about how this project will be used or anything like that?

A: No, I don't think so.

M: I think I'll get back in touch with you if we want to follow more with anything else in particular, as I mentioned, it would be really great if you could share with us some social media posts, if you have anything that you'd like to share as an example of an expression of your identity in one way or another that would be really helpful for our project. But otherwise, I just want to say thank you and don't hesitate to reach out if your mind changes on anything related to this project. Like I say, if you would choose to be anonymous or if you would choose to withdraw your information from being used in the project, you can always do that at any time.

Nicaragua

Wichita, Kansas

Los Angeles, California